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Slits kameran när man filmar?

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All the Dslr cameras are great for general filming, but, if you are into filming there are not the right tools. Don't get me wrong, i love them and i use a lot for for filming but, even using enhancements like magic lantern, the dslrs are very limited in many ways.
Just to name a few, the dslrs are single bayer sensor, that means that the color produced are kind of "invented". I mean, the sensor does not have a photosite for ech color but an array of RGB filters over the photosites where the green ones are duplicated (because the green channel contains most of the luma and it is well known that the human eye is more sensitive to the luma than the chroma). From that the camera does a series of statisticals interpolations of the neighbour pixels to "figure out" which color each pixel should be. That is fine for general purposes but think what hapend with the edges in the image, there is no way for the system to figure out the "right colour".
In the other side since the realm information of the pixels is so data costuming, it would be impossible to process and store all that data with the technology of this days. Knowing that, and knowing that the eye is very sensitive to to luma (a small gradation of light is easily perceived by the aye) but not the chroma (a big change in color is hardly perceived by the eye) the trick is to do what it is called chroma subsampling to reduce the bandwidth (or the amount of data to be transferred and stored).
How is done? simple: the signal is first converted to Y Cr Cb (Y for luma, Cr the differential of the red and Cb the differential of the blue, yo must wonder where is the green, well....it happens thatbthe green contains must of the luma so that channel is also used as it containing the green).
Now we can start to subsample. Each pixel contains a sample of Y but every two pixels contains either a sample of Cr either Cb. This is called 4:2:2 sample and itis used only in high end video cameras because it continue to be very data consuming. Most of cameras uses 4:2:0 what it is an odd way to name it. It means that for each luma sample it uses alternative blocks of Cr and Cb in rows. This way the data is reduced to about a quarter of the original data. Over that the camera compresses the signal to reduce even more the bandwidth (through h264 or other compression schemes).
Normal professional videocameras not only use more dedicated hardware to deal with the processing but in general has three sensors, one for each colour. That means that each photo site gets the full color information and doesn't have to figure out the color of each point. Their internal electronics makes a better job processing the information in a higher bit count (more precision), but also has functions to manipulate the gamma curves, knee, matrices and so on.
Over this DSLRs can not use the full sensor to generate the video and most uses a technique use line skipping, that means, it doesn't use all the lines (supersampling) and then process the final image (this is because of lack of processing power and because the sensor would be very hot what would introduce lot of noise. This phenomena causes moire. To avoid that the manufacturer are forced to add a low pass filter (the higher frequencies are eliminated). A high pass filter is nothing but a blur filter (thats why the image is not crisp and losses a lot of details, it is a tradeoff). Lets be clear, all the cameras has some king of low pass filters but the video cameras a re less prone to the effects so the filters can be softer, specially because the resolution don need to be high enough for still photography too.
No doubt, the dslr are getting better and better and are great tools, but the the tradeoffs are too high to even come closer to real video devices.
There is much more to write about it, we should consider MTF, Kell factor, Cmos sensors VS CCD, rolling shutter vs global shutter, etc, etc, etc.
If you are interested i can taken one by one this issues and anayle them to see how we can use to our advantage.

best regards

Martin Chab
 
Don't be confused. Most of the cameras output 4:2:2 through the HDMI but it is just stripped zeros at the end. The 4:2:0 is done at the sensor circuit level. The fact that HDMI can transfer bigger amount of data does not mean that it is a real 4:2:2 signal. Just make a test, grab a frame with high contrast and color cobtrast in photoshop, transform the color space in lab (similar is some way to YUV) and loos the luma that is clean and loss how blocku are the other channels. 4:2:2: calls for huge amounts of processing (nothing to say about 4:4:4: what it is called real RGB what anyway does not exist in a bayer sensor).
The manufacturers hide or simply lie about many of the specifications just because "mode" sells. I am not complaining at all, the advances in the technology are huge and every year we see big advances in many aspects other than the glasses that has a much lower development curve because of the price and sadly enough the lens contributes with perhaps 70 percent of the mtf and so the quality ofthe final image.
Dont forget that after all the internal treatment of the image the footage is highly compressed and, even if the compression schemes are getting better and better if far from enough to get a fair quality of material that is manipulable in post. just do the math: 1920x1080=2073600 pixel X 25 if we consider pal world=51840000 x 16 bits per channel = 2488320000 bit per second. Now consider doing gamma correction, knee compression, color matrices, denonising, white balance, debater (or as is should be demosaicing), matrix metering, h264 compression and a myriad of other functions, all that in a small dsp. Go and figure out if that is possible without discarding most of the info.
Again, i am not complaining, i use a canon 60d and i am very happy with it. But i firmly believe that each camera has it own purpose.
 
Nej inte internt. Kameran spelar in i AVCHD och det formatet har bara stöd för 4:2:0

Däremot kan den externt via HDMI skicka en 4:2:2 signal.


Okej, dom gör väl lite förbättringar för varje år vad gäller film, är väl inte tänkt att stillbildskamerorna skall konkurrera med Profilmkameror runt halvmiljonen.
 
Panasonic GH3 lär vara den allra bästa på filmning, Foto skriver att den klarar att filma Tv-produktioner utan problem så bra är den kameran.


//Bengt.
 
Man får väl ta allt med en viss nypa salt.

Går gör det säkert, det har ju gjorts TV-produktioner även med Super-8 filmkameror, så...
.
 
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against DSLRs, i love them. I just pointing out the limitations of each system. I have analysed cameras stating an 4:2:2 out through the hdmi to find that it was just numbers and not real 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.
First of all: why do you want a los subsampling if the eye is almost not sensitive to differences in chroma? Well, in some cases you want to do heavy color grading and then you need all the colors pixel by pixel otherwise you would introduce artefacts. Or when you like to do green, blue or red screen. In this case the fact that the chroma is sampled every two, four or more photosites makes your key at least poor (it can't copy the fine detail and the key is full of staircases).
The other aspect is the line skipping. The sensor having many photo sites and a limited processing power can not over sample the image and use an algorithm like bicubic (to name some) to create the final image. That's why most of the cameras simply skip the lines in between to count 1080 or 720 total lines. This of course adds to the moire and staircases in al diagonal lines. The solution? a stronger low pass filter that is nothing but a blur filter actually reducing the effective resolution of the imager.
The fact that you can broadcast material shot by a dslr doesn't make its limitations disappear, right?
 
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against DSLRs, i love them. I just pointing out the limitations of each system. I have analysed cameras stating an 4:2:2 out through the hdmi to find that it was just numbers and not real 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.
First of all: why do you want a los subsampling if the eye is almost not sensitive to differences in chroma? Well, in some cases you want to do heavy color grading and then you need all the colors pixel by pixel otherwise you would introduce artefacts. Or when you like to do green, blue or red screen. In this case the fact that the chroma is sampled every two, four or more photosites makes your key at least poor (it can't copy the fine detail and the key is full of staircases).
The other aspect is the line skipping. The sensor having many photo sites and a limited processing power can not over sample the image and use an algorithm like bicubic (to name some) to create the final image. That's why most of the cameras simply skip the lines in between to count 1080 or 720 total lines. This of course adds to the moire and staircases in al diagonal lines. The solution? a stronger low pass filter that is nothing but a blur filter actually reducing the effective resolution of the imager.
The fact that you can broadcast material shot by a dslr doesn't make its limitations disappear, right?



Tror inte att många tvivlar på vad du skriver, visst blir vi förda bakom ljuset, komprimeringen är välkänd för att göra det hela hanterbart i vanliga datorer. som gammal filmgalning så var inte alla filmer på topp vad gäller kvalitet, dålig ljussättning och många andra svårigheter hjälpte inte den dyra proffskameran precis.
 
Tror inte att många tvivlar på vad du skriver, visst blir vi förda bakom ljuset, komprimeringen är välkänd för att göra det hela hanterbart i vanliga datorer. som gammal filmgalning så var inte alla filmer på topp vad gäller kvalitet, dålig ljussättning och många andra svårigheter hjälpte inte den dyra proffskameran precis.

I agree 100% with you. In fact one can take awesome pictures with just a mobile phone. It is just a matter of knowing the tools, their limitations, their use and try to make the best of each one, right?
I am not a tech freak, even if i would like to have a Sony F65 with a set of master primes, some cooke, some angeniews and a myriad of nice accessories :)
 
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